|Bob Scott wrote the book. Literally, every lacrosse coach has a worn copy on the bookshelf in his office or sitting right on his desk. There have been good coaching books written since the 1976 publishing, but none that replace Lacrosse, Technique and Tradition by the legendary Johns Hopkins Coach and Mentor.|
Scott served as the Athletic Director at Johns Hopkins for many years, as well as coaching the Blue Jays for twenty years before that. It is widely believed that no one man has more knowlege of the how the game is played than Bob Scott. E-Lacrosse writer Peter Anderson met with Scott on the campus of Johns Hopkins University in early March to speak about lacrosse, past and present. Scott, who is a staple at JHU contests, would miss the Hopkins v. Princeton season opener only days later, while attending the wedding of Steve Ciccarone, son of the late Scott protege Henry Ciccarone. An all-around great day for the Hopkins family as the Blue Jays defeated the Tigers in a stunning comeback and Scott was able to watch the game, played in a driving rainstorm, on T.V. later anyway. Things have changed in many ways since Scott was coaching, and then some things, like his love for the game, and our respect for his views, never change.
E-Lacrosse: You served in the military between playing and coaching. Didn't you?
Scott: I was fortunate. I had an ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corps - still a strong program at JHU) commission. I went down to Fort Benning, Georgia to the infantry school. I went through the officers training program. I had my commission, went through the program and then was assigned to the ranger department. [I] had to go through the ranger school to become an instructor in the department, which I did. I ended up spending about sixteen or seventeen months in the ranger department. That experience was marvelous, because I was kid lieutenant. Non combat experience, in with a bunch of guys who served in World War II, and who had come back from Korea. Combat veterans, some with silver stars, distinguished service crosses; guys who were really heroes in the war. I was lucky to be around those guys and just listen and learn and observe. So that was a great experience. I was actually in swamp training program at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida for about thirteen months.
E-Lacrosse: Do you think being a ranger instructor helped you to become a better coach?
Scott: Yes, because we were dealing with high quality soldiers, both enlisted men and officers who would go through the course, so it was a great training experience for me and it helped to develop leadership qualities.
E-Lacrosse: How did the Korean and Vietnam Wars effect your team and lacrosse at the time?
Scott: I actually started coaching after the Korean War. I started in the fall of 1954. The Vietnam War did actually come into play pretty heavily on the college campuses. There were some strong feelings among certain members of our team, concerning the war. In fact, in 1970, our captain wanted us to wear black arm bands as a symbol in opposition of the war when we went down to play the Navy in May. But I didn't feel that it was appropriate to get involved in any sort of statement representing our team - with a political statement. Our captain was upset with this and actually went to the dean, and the dean called me and asked me about my feelings. And I told him my feelings. He said, 'How about considering allowing them to do it.' I said, 'Sure, I'll consider it', which I did, and we didn't end up wearing the black arm bands because I just didn't feel it was appropriate.
E-Lacrosse: Who would you consider your mentors as coaches?
Scott: I would say Kelso Morrill was my number one mentor. Kelso was in the class that played on the 1927 team at Hopkins. He stayed at Hopkins and got his PHD and then was an assistant coach for a number of years. Then in the mid 1930's he took over as head coach through World War II and gave up the head coaching [post] prior to the '47 season when Howdy Myers took over. Kelso was asked to come back when Myers left in after the '49 season. Myers coached in '47, '48 and '49 and didn't lose a college game in those three years. He left to go to Hofstra University as athletic director, football and lacrosse coach. Kelso was asked to take the team one more year, which he did in 1950 and that was my sophomore year. So I got to play for Kelso as a sophomore. We had a freshman team in those days—you couldn't play on the varsity, so in the spring of '49 I also played for Kelso on the freshman team. So I played under him for two years in 1949 and 1950.
Scott with Wilson Fewster in '51 or '52
We won the championship again in 1950, and that meant that those seniors, and it was a whole corps of seniors, led Hopkins through four undefeated collegiate seasons in '47, '48, '49, and '50 and I was fortunate enough to tag in with that final team in 1950. Fred Smith, who was a great All-American, graduated in '50 and coached me in 1951 at Hopkins, my junior year. He then went full time into the business world, and Wilson Fewster coached in 1952. He too was one of Hopkins' all time greats [from the] class of 1950. So I played for those two guys and then when I took over as coach because Fewster left to go to University of Virginia in 1955, I had Kelso Morrill as my assistant. I had Bill Logan, who was director of admissions at the time, who had previously been a Hopkins all time great. [Logon] had coached Princeton to a national championship during the war years, I think it was 1942 that Princeton won the championship under Bill Logan.
So I had these two guys as my assistant coaches, and at that time I am age 25. Doctor Morrill was in his late forties…he was around fifty. He and Logan were both in their late forties, early fifties and they are my assistant coaches—two guys who had coached national championship teams at Hopkins and one at Princeton. They are my assistants. In other words, they were grooming me and teaching me how to coach the game of lacrosse. Fred Smith was also my assistant that year and he had been the head coach for two years, 1951 and 1954 and was a great player—one of Hopkins' [best ever]. And then Fewster came back and helped me coach the varsity from 1957 and was on the staff all the way until 1966. So I had the benefit of Fewster as well from 1957 on. Fewster was a great coach and a great teacher.
Scott, next to a young Henry Ciccarone in the back row
So I had a lot of talent, coaching talent, around me during my time. Then when Henry Ciccarone graduated in '62 it was obvious that Chic as a player was so smart and so knowledgeable and knew the game. Chic then joined our staff right after graduation and he and I worked together for about nine years. Then when I retired after the '74 season, Chic took over and won three national championships in the nine years he was head coach. So he had great success as a coach and he was my assistant for about nine years. So I had another guy working with me who ended up being one of Hopkins' all time great coaches and that's Henry Ciccarone.
E-Lacrosse: Tell us a little more about Chic and the Zimmerman years.
Scott: When I turned the team over to Chic his first season was '75. They were certainly competitive in '75 and '76, but in '77 we were competitive enough to play Cornell for the national championship and they beat us. But then we won three straight championships in '78 with Chic's team beating Cornell and in '79 beating Maryland and in '80 beating UVA. So he had three national championships in a row. He continued in '81, '82 and '83, playing for the championship each of those years, but lost '81 and '82 to [North] Carolina and in '83 he lost to Syracuse. So he actually played in seven consecutive national championship games. Nobody else has equaled that in the 27 NCAA seasons.
Don Zimmerman picked up for Chic. We didn't win it in '81, '82 and '83. Zim takes over in '84 and goes undefeated, then wins it again in '85. '86 Carolina upsets us in the semifinals. We got knocked out in overtime and then in '87 we knocked off Maryland, who was the number one, undefeated team in the semi's and beat Cornell for the national championship. So in Zimmerman's first four years he had three national championships. Then in '89 he lost to a great Syracuse team with the Gait brothers. And '90 was his last year before leaving Hopkins. He had a great stretch of seven years and he won three national championships. So we've had some guys who have done some great things in coaching at Hopkins. Certainly Chic was one of the all time great coaches, all schools considered, and Don Zimmerman's record is hard to top.
E-Lacrosse: Do you have any idea how many of your players have gone on to coach in the game?
Scott: No, I don't really have numbers on that. Some have gone on to coach on the high school level, being comfortable to coach on that level and others have gone on to coach at the college level. Certainly Henry Ciccarone was one of the game's best ever coaches. Willy Scroggs at Carolina went on to win three national championships at Carolina as the head coach. Willy was class of 1969 at Hopkins. Chic was '62 and so was Jerry Schmidt. Jerry had national championship teams at Hobart College and started them on their streak of consecutive college division championships, which became division three national championships. But Schmidt got the whole Hobart program going. He was the only lacrosse guy ever to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated. As far as other college coaches, on the top level I think Ciccarone, Scroggs and Schmidt are the guys that won national championships. I didn't coach Zimmerman, he was after my time.
E-Lacrosse: When did you start playing lacrosse?
Scott: I was a ninth grader at Garrison Junior High School here in Baltimore. Somebody from over at Forrest Park High School said they were going to get a group of kids to play on the "Forrest Park Cubs", they called us. That was my first exposure. They needed somebody to play in the goal, so I said okay, I'll do it. So I jumped in and I was the goalie. I didn't really know what I was doing. Nobody taught me much. I was a goalie as a ninth grader and three years on varsity at Forrest Park High School I was a goalie. I came to Hopkins and switched to midfield because we had had another kid who was a pretty good goalkeeper here. Between the two of us I was more geared to playing outside of the goal, which I preferred to do anyhow and I played midfield here at Hopkins.
Scott, the player in 1951
E-Lacrosse: Your first coaching experience was here at Hopkins?
Scott: I started in the fall of 1954. That was the beginning of my coaching career. I worked in football for sixteen years along with coaching lacrosse and about six years I also coached freshman basketball. But '55 was my first varsity lacrosse season. I was teaching physical education class during the week and had other administrative duties and in the fall season most of my years I was in the seven day a week football program. About seven of my years I had a winter sport. So you coach three sports, you have Phys. Ed. classes and administrative duties. Today, with our lacrosse coaches, we have two full time guys who do nothing but lacrosse, plus a third guy who's on restricted earnings, so actually there are three guys who do nothing but lacrosse all year round. There have been a lot of changes in that regard, which is better. They can say whatever they want about better, but it was a great time and a great way of doing things and it wasn't so high powered with year round emphasis. It was football in the fall, or some guys played soccer and I had as much fun coaching freshman football. I didn't pay any attention to lacrosse in the fall. I started thinking about lacrosse in January. We couldn't start until the end of February. March 1 was the first day we could practice, and now they're playing their first game on the sixth this year.
E-Lacrosse: You witnessed the 1957 game with Jim Brown, can you remember or give a description of some of the play?
Scott: I can certainly remember Jimmy Brown. He came down the day before the game and scrimmaged against some of the all-star or actually the guys who weren't playing in the North-South game. Club players, there were some great players that scrimmaged against the guy in the scrimmages. First, seeing him in the locker room, stripped down, his waist looked like it was about a size 32" and each of his thighs looked almost like it was a 32". He was just so powerful in the thighs and his body looked like a man of about 195 pounds and he was so sleek and powerful. And he was 228 pounds. 228 and I swear I looked at him and was like he might be 195 maybe 200, and just every ounce was muscle. He played in the game and he had five goals and two assists by the early part of the second half. The North was well in command of the game and he really eased off, but he was a man playing with boys. He looked like a college senior all-star playing with the best tenth graders around. Great players, but so much younger, not as strong and powerful. Our guys had no way of stopping him, no way… He put on a show and people couldn't believe it. In fact, I sat with a guy who played on our '28 Olympic Team, an All-American, a hall of famer, and I asked him if any of their guys back in the twenties [compared]. That guy's name was Gardner Mallonee. He coached at Hopkins. Gardner was an assistant coach under Kelso. He was Athletic Director. He had spent the major part of his career at the university as a coach, and was one of the all time great players. We sat there watching the game and he said, 'that guy's the best I've ever seen.'
E-Lacrosse: Do you agree with that?
Scott: There's no question and I'll carry that up to the present day. Gary Gait is close to Jimmy Brown, but there's no question, if you're choosing sides and you put Gait here and you put Jim Brown here and if you know what you're doing and you have the first choice, you take Jimmy Brown every time. It's not even close. I mean Gait's a great shooter, he's done all the box play and he's great with a stick, but if you're playing field lacrosse, playing that game running up and down the field, in their prime, there's no question that Jimmy Brown is the best lacrosse player ever to play the game.
E-Lacrosse: Is Gait the only person that's been close?
Scott: Yes, I would say Gary Gait is the only person. Urso was a great midfielder at Maryland. He was a first team All-American for three years and he was a great one too. Frank was maybe 5' 11", 180 pounds, great speed, and he was truly one of the game's great midfielders, but again, it wouldn't be close with Frank Urso and Jimmy Brown. People who haven't seen Brown would think "oh, he's just a football player, and he was strong and fast but he couldn't do the things Gary Gait does." but Jimmy Brown played at Manhasset High School; three years in high school and his four years at Syracuse. And Gait's been playing since he was probably six or seven years old. He has a ton of experience and is certainly a great shooter and stick handler, but speed-wise I don't think anybody would think you could say he would beat Jimmy brown in a race. He isn't going to beat Jimmy Brown in a race, and as far as handling a stick, it looked like it was a toothpick that brown had in his hand. People said it was an illegal stick, that it was too small, but I doubt that. It just looked small because he was so damn big.
E-Lacrosse: What do you think of the Canadian style of play, of box lacrosse?
Scott: The Canadian players are great offensive players because they play in that small ice arena indoor box, and they can do a lot of things with that stick. The Canadian players are really very effective skillful offensive players in particular. But the box game hasn't swept our country. It's a game they play in Canada and I don't know whether the field game is played as much as the box game. I really don't know that, but the indoor game is just a different game and I don't think a lot of people [down here] really get excited about it, even with a lot of great players playing. You know they have 8,000 fans or 7,000 fans down at the Baltimore Arena for their games. It's just not the game that people are used to.
E-Lacrosse: What are the big rivalries in your past, both personal and team related?
Scott: Maryland and Hopkins was always a great rivalry and that went down through the years. During my twenty years of coaching, our record with Maryland was about .500. Some of those years we played a couple of times, and that was once we started the playoffs. We played them in the playoffs in '72, '73 and '74. Those were my last three years, so we played them probably 23 times. I don't know whether the record was 12-11 Hopkins or 12-11 Maryland, but it was that close, and you know it was just a heated rivalry. It was always the last game of our season, the last game of their season and it was a high-powered rivalry.
Navy became a dominant team in the early to mid sixties, and we didn't beat Navy for eight straight years. But that was when they had the football players. We did beat them in '67 and we ended up sharing the championship with Navy that year. That was their last championship and their football team no longer allowed the football players to play a spring sport somewhere around '68 or '69. Navy just became another team. When they had the football players playing, along with the recruited lacrosse players, they were a overwhelming machine because Navy's football was national level football. They were top ten and in the [Roger] Staubach era. They were two or three in the country. But that all ended and Navy just became another team.
We had a great rivalry with Navy for many years, highlighted by them beating us eight straight times and then we lost to them in '74 and we've beaten them every year since then—twenty-four straight times. That's hard to imagine that we haven't lost to them in all those years. We should have lost to them last year. We didn't deserve to beat them. The referee screwed that up for Navy. Navy had the ball. The kid didn't put it in play within five seconds. A rule that's in the book, but I've never, never seen it called. Five maybe six or seven seconds go by, and a good official would have said, 'Hey son, you better put the ball in play or else I'm gonna blow the whistle," and he didn't do that. He just blew the whistle and gave the ball to Hopkins, when Navy had a one goal lead and the ball with a minute and a half to go. The referee blows the whistle, we get the ball and score, tie it up and then win the game with one second left. Navy was really screwed royally by the official on that call. But anyhow, as I said, we've beaten them since '75 and that carries through 1998. That's twenty four straight years.
E-Lacrosse: In your book you credit managers and trainers more than most coaches would. How important are the support people in your opinion in building a successful program?
Scott: They're very important, certainly the managers are extremely important. We've had some great managers at Hopkins. Seemed like most of them were Phi Beta Kappa's. They start freshman year and go through all four years. [They] were so smart and enjoyed an involvement with the game of lacrosse. The one who stands out the most in this regard is E. Doyle Smith, Jr. And he stands out, not just because he was a Phi Beta Kappa, but because he was with us for six years, four years as an undergraduate, and then he stayed on to get his masters degree in History. Then he went to UVA to get his PHD but continued his involvement in lacrosse. Doyle was just his dissertation away from his PHD when he decided to give up the PHD and go into sports information full time at the University of Virginia, and remained in sports information [to the present]. He's retiring this year. Doyle put in six years with us, went down to UVA after the '68 season. So he was with Virginia from the fall of '68 until now, the spring of '99. So that's thirty-one years. And during that time he's been the executive secretary of the USILA. He worked in the lacrosse association all of those years once he went into the full time sports information work at UVA. He became a continual worker for the United States Intercollegiate Lacrosse Association in the area of publicity and getting out all sorts of information. He was like a sports information director for the USILA. Doyle is a guy that's so well known by all of the lacrosse people, not just Hopkins and UVA. He has received a number of awards.
He highlights a group of people who would fix sticks. Prior to the early 70's we played with wooden sticks and when they would break, a guy would be heart broken, I mean, here's his best wand and it's broken. And they had a fiberglass process and these managers, there was always one guy who was our stick guy who would fiberglass the sticks and get them back into usable condition. Those guys were worth their weight in gold to keep repairing broken sticks. So our managers played a key role.
E-Lacrosse: What coaches and players impress you today?
Scott: Certainly Bill Tierney is a guy who has hands down done the most impressive coaching job in the game. I mean, when you win five out of seven championships, that's saying an awful lot. What John Haus did down at Washington College is a very impressive piece of work, taking a team after one season of around .500 to three straight national championship games and winning the last one with a school that had never won in the finals. They had always lost, and they finally won it with John Haus. I have a very high regard for John Haus and what he will be capable of doing at Johns Hopkins.
E-Lacrosse: Are there any current players that strike you as great all-around players?
Scott: No, I wouldn't try to pick out any of the All-Americans of last year or recent years to say that these are some of the best players ever to play the game. There are a lot of good players. There are a lot more good players today than my time, up through '74. In the last twenty-five years there's so much more lacrosse being played. From the little league for six and seven year olds, all the way up through high school there's so much more going today than twenty-five years ago. And there are more good players today than there were back in that time.
E-Lacrosse: Considering you've coached basketball, coached lacrosse and coached football, is there any one that's your favorite or are you still a fan of all of them. I know you still come to Hopkins football games as well.
Scott: In each season, you know. I'm not big on watching fall lacrosse or, we don't have spring football, but were we to have had spring football, I don't care about what happens at spring football. During the fall I like to watch football, and during the basketball season I watch basketball and come lacrosse, I'm ready for lacrosse. Although I coached lacrosse, my years of coaching freshman football, I had as much fun and enjoyed coaching freshman football just as much as I did coaching lacrosse. Maybe I was naïve not to realize how important it was among the Hopkins community, but in those days you just didn't approach it that way. I didn't anyhow.
E-Lacrosse: Do you have any regrets from your coaching career or a most memorable moment?
Scott: Not really. Certainly no regrets. It was a great time. Certainly the time that our team won the national championship my last year as a coach, that was nice. Actually we lost the national championship by one goal each of the two years before that. In '72 we lost to Virginia 13-12 for the national championship and in '73 we lost to Maryland in overtime. I think that was 11-10 and here we go. It's '74, it's my last year and we're either gonna win it or we're gonna lose it. And we could have gone out, that team of '74 was a great team and the thing that was so good was this was their last shot at it. They were either going to go out as three time losers, or going out with a championship their senior year. I went out with them and we went out as champions. It certainly made it nice to wrap up one's coaching career with a national championship. I guess you'd almost have to say that it was the most memorable moment, not that winning other games weren't great thrills, but I guess you'd have to say that was the best, since it was the last and it eased the sting of the two previous years.
E-Lacrosse: Do you think the NCAA involvement has been good for the game of lacrosse?
Scott: Yes, it's given the game a high profile. It's definitely been good for it.
Scott, the A.D.
E-Lacrosse: What do you think of all the rules changes made by the NCAA?
Scott: That's up to the NCAA rules committee, which consists of coaches and some athletic directors—guys who certainly know the game of lacrosse and they do what they feel is best for the game. There are some changes and some rules of the game that weren't around in earlier time. I don't know if they're all for the better. I don't think some of them are, but the game today certainly is a fast game.
I don't like all of that substitution on the fly with guys running in and out of the box all the time. There's no other sport that has that type substitution while the ball's in play. Ice hockey has to change the lines, but that's so subtle and so infrequent. In lacrosse every time the ball goes from the offense you have guys flying to the box and it really is screwy. You don't have that in any other sport. I think it's lousy. And I think a lot of the guys that have been around a while look at the game and say "holy hell, we've got all these people and we have to wait while guys make the change." It's taken something away from the game I believe.
E-Lacrosse: What do you think about the outlawing of the dive?
Scott: It doesn't make any difference. I read about the decision to eliminate it and I didn't have feelings for it or against it. I don't really think it makes a whole lot of difference.
E-Lacrosse: What do you think about there being no more mid-sized poles, after all, in your day you were able to use them.
Scott: You could use the minimum was 40 inches and the maximum was up to 72 inches, six feet but they've cut out the in-between stick size, but I don't really know if that's made a whole lot of difference.
E-Lacrosse: Do you have any opinion on shot clocks or the clearing clock?
Scott: I guess it's served its purpose, in that it forces the ball out of the defensive end of the field in a way that moves the game a little faster. So I guess that rule has been okay. But then again, you've got guys counting ten seconds, ten seconds to get it out, and then once you get it over the midfield line you've got ten seconds again, and if you step out of the box, you've got the referee counting. I guess they have become schooled to doing that. It seems to be working okay. It has moved the game, made it faster and is probably a good rule.
E-Lacrosse: What about Title IX, as a former AD?
Scott: There are some schools that have been forced to drop men's lacrosse because of Title IX. It hasn't been that many, but a certain amount of that happened. You know, as far as we handled Title IX at Hopkins, it wasn't any problem at all. Whatever sports our women wanted and had interest in, we kept adding them, and we've had a balance of just about the same number, in fact we might even have one more women's sport than we do men's sports right now. So we haven't had any problems with that at Hopkins. So I don't think it's had any great impact on the game of lacrosse. It has added a lot of women's teams and that certainly is a plus, that there are more women's lacrosse teams than ever before.
E-Lacrosse: Do you think that could hold back the growth of men's lacrosse, with Title IX, since you have to have an even number of men's sports and women's sports and most schools can't add men's lacrosse even if they want to?
Scott: That's a factor, and it could have its influence. We'll just have to wait and see how many men's teams are added. It may certainly stunt the growth of men's lacrosse. It definitely helps women's.
E-Lacrosse: You were a mentor for the Japanese program, starting up team Japan. How did that start and what has happened with the growth in Japan?
Scott: Well, our then vice president, Ross Jones, had been in Tokyo, and he bumped into one of our alumni, a guy named Norio Endo, class of '56. And Norio was working with the Grumman corporation in Tokyo and had loved the game of lacrosse when he was here. And he and Ross Jones said hey why can't we start something over here. It would be natural for the Japanese athlete to play a game that's fast. You need to be smart to play the game and Ross came back from his visit and asked me if I would be willing to go over there to try to stir up interest in the sport. I wasn't really too anxious at the start, but he thought it would be a good idea and my wife and I did go. They sent us over there, paid our expenses, and I was there about two weeks and met with about fourteen students from Keio University. I ended up getting on national television for about two and a half minutes—they did a two and a half minute clip on me working with these kids. Really it exposed the sport to Japan. You know, when you hit national TV that's a big thing.
Our coach Don Zimmerman went over by himself at least two, if not three times, and we took the Hopkins Lacrosse team over in '88 or '89. We did some exhibition games over there and clinics and really Hopkins was the one that got lacrosse going in Japan. I was the lead guy and the guy who got the recognition as the guy who got lacrosse started in Japan.
Sally Anderson was our women's coach at Hopkins at the time and Sally went over and got the college women started in lacrosse. And there's as much female lacrosse as male lacrosse in Japan today. I forget what the number was. I asked the Japanese people that were over here for the world games this summer what the total number of students playing lacrosse in Japan was and I forget, but I think the number was in the 15,000 range with as many female as male students.
The Japanese men came in here into the world competition and they were terrific. They did a tremendous job. They were 5-0 within Group B and ended up losing in the playoffs, but going into the final round they didn't lose a game. I thought they did a fine job. I was really impressed with how they have advanced. They're playing the game just like a regular college team here in the states with kids who have been playing for fifteen years.
E-Lacrosse: What advice would you give to a new coach?
Scott: Keep it simple in what you're doing. Every guy has to know what his responsibility is. In putting a team together, all ten guys out on the field have to know what they're doing and where they're supposed to be and all the fundamental things. The emphasis on the little things is important, because if you don't do the little things right, you'll end up in a pressure situation, messing up and not winning a ball game that maybe you're capable of winning. I would say the emphasis on fundamentals and on awareness of responsibilities and on carrying them out are the most important things.
E-Lacrosse: What do you think of Hopkins' chances this season?
Scott: I think they'll be competitive. I think there are probably a half dozen other teams that you can say that same thing for. These preseason picks and all that stuff is just a bunch of baloney. That's just some guy's opinion that this one is number one and this one is number six and we'll go through the season with all the rankings and all. And you know that stuff doesn't mean anything either. It gets down to the playoffs and you either have to win four games or you have to win three straight games, depending whether you have a bye or not, and that's when you better be good. That's when everything better be coming together to either go 4-0 or 3-0 and that's when you become national champion. But all that preseason stuff, it's just talk and it doesn't pan out very often. I guess Princeton's made it out to be pretty good, but they're the defending champion each year, and everyone picks them each year and when you win five out of seven then they're making the polls look good and they're good enough to win the thing.
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